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Chris Lanier's Blog

Would You Really Buy a Media Center Server?

You know, the concept of a standalone Media Center Server is interesting.  It is exactly what many enthusiasts want, and it would be logical to only have a single device instead of attempting to make the sale of a Windows Home Server and powerful Media Center PC (either desktop or standalone).  I’ve seen dozens of people bring them up at the Owen Threads , but I’m still not sure I buy it.

What is the principle problem people have with Media Center right now outside of the lack of integration?  Price.  I’ve talked about it being important dozens of times, but when you factor price into the Media Center Server equation it just doesn’t equal out.  Others have started questioning it to, and are finally starting to realize that the price of such a machine wouldn’t make it marketable or profitable (something I’ve been saying for years, minus Viiv which Intel didn't follow-up on) despite the fact that it is seen as the holy grail to many.

Instead of buying an expensive desktop PC, you want to buy a server which is actually going to be more expensive?  Media Center has become more demanding on the hardware side, it really isn’t the application you can run on your extra PC that was just gathering dust in the closet.  Even when you take video playback out of the equation, you still have streaming to Extenders to factor into the picture, you still have recording from multiple tuners, you still have transcoding and ripping audio/video, and let’s not forget you also have mission critical backup and file serving to deal with assuming you are integrated the Home Server functions.

When I have posted about CableCARD PCs over the past year a common reply is where is the option without the “expensive” HDCP-HDMI graphics card.  It is also a common argument for the Media Center Server side of things.  Take out the expensive graphics card are replace it with integrated since the server has no local playback abilities.  Makes sense, until you realize that all the PC really needs is a $60-$150 graphics card at this point.  It is no longer the great expensive it used to be.

A Media Center Server, while a great concept, is something that I just don’t see as a good move for Microsoft at this point.  I’m not trying to say there is no market for a Media Center Server, but I don’t think it should be the key platform for Microsoft to concentrate on.  Media Center is hard enough to sell, no doubt some marketing would help with that, but trying to market an expensive server isn’t going to help the cause.

I find it much easier to sell a Windows Vista desktop PC and an Xbox 360 or Extender to someone then to sell then a Media Center Server and an Xbox 360 or Extender.  That Vista PC is really the only thing that people can use to justify the cost of Media Center.  The fact that you get the PC is very important and shouldn’t be overlooked.  Without the PC aspect, I wouldn’t be a Media Center user still.

It also should be noted that we look at the high end and speciality guy’s releasing new systems monthly that are basically Media Center Servers without the Windows Home Server aspect involved.  All I ever see people do is comment about how expensive and how they would never spend such an amount for Media Center.  Needless to say, I’m a tad confused about what people really hope to get out of a Media Center Server.

What price point would you see these targeted at by Microsoft and OEMs?  Above $1,800 seems like most are out of the market based on what I’ve been reading from everyone on CableCARD PCs, but I wouldn’t see a Media Center Server launching for less than that (most likely significantly more).

Also note that I’m leaving out the build your own scenario.  With CableCARD and likely DIRECTV being OEM only, Microsoft should not be concentrating on two visions (this is the problem in the first place with the E&D division).  Unlike CableLabs changes their mind on how CableCARD on the PC is administrated, there is no reason for Microsoft to put development time toward a solution that wouldn’t work for HD.

So, what price point would you see these targeted at by Microsoft and OEMs?

Update: Based on current comments, I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across.

  • What price would you spend for a "Media Center Server"?
  • If that price is as much or more as current CableCARD PCs (which are basically servers with data backup), then do you have a problem with the price of current CableCARD/High End Media Center PCs?  I know most of my readers have problems with the price.
  • Why would you jump on a product called a Media Center Server when you will not jump on a higher priced Media Center PC from a speciality company or that includes CableCARD?

It just doesn't make sence to me why you would spend money for a product called a "Media Center Server," when current Media Center PCs and CableCARD PCs are really "servers" to begin with, and yet we all complain about the high price of these PCs.  Why?

Update 2: So, I realized I probably shouldn’t of titled this “would you buy…” considering the first thing I said in the post was that enthusiasts want it.  My point, that I didn’t get across at all (one day I’ll realize that I’m the worst writer in the history of the world) is that I don’t believe a standalone server will sell to anyone but enthusiasts simply because no average person is going to run out and purchased a dedicated box that doesn’t function as a regular PC.

I was surprised that the few people that put on price tag in their post would pay so much considering how most complain about the price of CableCARD and speciality Media Center's.  On the price subject, I don't think many people understood my point about specs and OEM Media Center Servers.  Just because you can build a low end machine and it works for your four tuners, doesn't mean an OEM can do the same.  Both Microsoft and OEMs put a lot of work into figuring out what is needed, and for a high end server that is going to be at the center of a home you can skimp on anything if you are an OEM and Microsoft.  You can on your home built stuff, but this isn't the same.

A few commented that part of the idea for the server concept would be stablity.  My counter to this is that Media Center needs to be stable no matter what it is running on, and Microsoft should be looking at the concept of running Media Center in a sandbox (or rather, keeping settings and codecs in a sandbox to stop other programs from screwing them up).

I also feel that a lot of comments came back to things that are not in Media Center, mainly Softsled (a software Extender).  This is key to Media Center's future, be it on a standalone server or desktop PC. 

Thanks to all that have commented! Great feedback.

Cross Posted from Chris Lanier's Blog at http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/
Published Friday, November 09, 2007 8:35 AM by Chris - Moderator
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Comments

 

erwos said:

So, the real problem here is that Cablecard tuners cost too much, and that "MCS" boxes would cost too much as a result. I think everyone knows that. But that's also where your argument falls apart - what if we don't care about CableCard?

For instance, there are those of us happy with a PVR-500 and an HDHomeRun. That's maybe $250 of hardware, a far cry from the $600-$800 that a pair of CableCard tuners run (even if we could buy them OEM and install them). For those of us who can deal with the no-CC limitation, you could build your own MCS box for $1200 including OS, maybe even less.

Plus, it would be slightly disingenuous to suggest that MCS would be worthless without CC support, because you'd have to say that Vista Windows Media Center is also worthless without CC support. I'm not convinced that's true.
November 9, 2007 8:52 AM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

I'm not really talking about the price that CableCARD adds, I'm talking about the overall price that isn't really reliant on what tuners are in question.  A server is going to imply full home, so four tuners at a minimum.

What you can build on your own doesn't really apply, you can always build for less.  The point is that a server is going to cost a significant amount and most are not going to pay.  Even for a more reasonable price, you would be asking people to buy a server instead of a more traditional PC.  People, outside of those who want to build their own PCs to begin with, are not going to buy a server.
November 9, 2007 9:12 AM
 

Jeff Reynolds said:

Chris, thanks for the continuing dialog about Vista Media Center.  I'm a big enthusiast and have migrated all my household digital entertainment infrastructure to it.

I don't think it is so much that people want a standalone, do-nothing-else box which wraps together everything from Media Center and WHS.  I think it is more about convergence of the features to make it possible for a desktop pc to be both a media center and a WHS box simultaneously; with tight integration between the two which make sharing, permissions, storage, etc. drop-dead simple.  The easy and reliable storage features alone from WHS would be a great add for Vista -- alas we'll probably be waiting another 5 years before we see it in Vista-next.

As for CableCard?  Until this becomes a non-OEM feature, I'll never buy into it.  This isn't just me saying this, but my family:  "Why would we buy another PC when we have a great one already which does everything we want?  Oh sure, it doesn't do encrypted digital cable, but then there's nothing really on cable which justifies the extra expense."

Shameless ask:  I'd much rather see Media Center folks following up on working with the content providers to allow DVD streaming to extenders (via a DVD changer or other "legal" means).  Built-in HD-DVD and/or Bloo-ray support instead of the brain-dead experience we have today.  Tight Netflix offerings through Media Center for those of us who subscribe to it.  Native clear-QAM support for those who want local HD channels through either HDHR or other clear-QAM tuner.
November 9, 2007 9:44 AM
 

Jeff Reynolds said:

Another shameless ask: What became of sideshow remotes and such?  We've heard a great deal about them awhile ago, but it's all vaporware.  Love to have a lightweight, *inexpensive* extender connected to an amp with such a remote so I could play my audio without the requirement to have a TV connected as well.  Would solve the multi-room audio situation...

Thanks again for all your efforts.
November 9, 2007 10:36 AM
 

DenCollins said:

"Love to have a lightweight, *inexpensive* extender connected to an amp with such a remote so I could play my audio without the requirement to have a TV connected as well."

Well a Roko or a Slimserver wil do that.
November 9, 2007 12:28 PM
 

ianjohnson said:

What is the difference between a Cable Card MC and an MC Server?  If you connect an XBOX360 to the MC desktop, it has just become a server, even if it is still running the TV in the living room.  If it is powerful enough to handle HD and cable card, it is high end enough to be a media server.  It's like asking would you pay more for Vista Home Premium or Vista Media Center Edition?  They are the same thing.  There might be a different shaped case or some more HDD or RAID, but buying a MC Server doesn't give you functionality that doesn't already exist in an ordinary Cable Card Desktop.

I would like to see WHS functions added in to create a real Media Center Server, but that doesn't need to be a separate product.  It would be an option you can select when configuring the PC's Operating System- "Add WHS Upgrade +100".  This would be something that would be useful for any computer buyer, not just those configuring a HTPC.  WHS doesn't have to be a separate box in the closet.  I think it would get more mainstream acceptance if the home server could also be the office computer which gets left on all of the time anyway.

I am sure it is way too complicated, but if WHS could run on top of Vista (WHS Edition) the way MCE did for XP, then that would be an ideal solution.  If you want your VMC to become a VMC server, then buy the WHS add-on plus an extender, and stick the desktop in the closet.  But not until they enable DVD streaming :)

So in summary it's like this.  Did you buy Vista Home Premium?  Congratulations you already have a Media Center! Just add a couple tuners (at least 2 to avoid conflicts)!  Do you have Media Center with a couple tuners?  Congratulations you have a media server,  Just buy an extender!.

Leave it to the OEMs to create "server shaped" VMC boxes.  
November 9, 2007 12:54 PM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

Jeff:  I agree integration needs to be looked at, but I'm really not sure that anything should be integrated directly into WHS (or the other way around).  To me, backup and file serving should be left alone.  The more you add, the more it no longer is a good backup device.

Your "Why would we buy another PC when we have a great one already which does everything we want?" is kind of my reasoning for not wanting a specific Media Center Server targeted by Microsoft.

And I strongly agree with you that there are dozens of other things that should be targeted before a Media Center Server is even close to the ticket.  DVD streaming, Softsled, Zune integration, and so on.  All of this should be there now and needs to be there way before a standalone server is created.

On Sideshow, Ricavision (the main partner) seems to be backpeddling but there are some hints stuff is finally starting to show in the next 2-3 months.
 
ianjohnson: Well said and pretty much my thoughts exactly on the CableCARD/Media Center PC vs. Media Center Server.  I however don't think WHS and Media Center should be combined but rather media sharing from WHS shouldn't require registry hacks and workarounds.

And tons of Media Center specific OEMs have "server" based solutions.  And again, the majority of my readers tend to turn their nose up at the price.  This is exactly why I don't see a good future for the concept, and even more why non-Media Center enthusiasts would be unlikely to jump on an expensive standalone server over a desktop PC that functions as a server without them knowing it is a server.
November 9, 2007 1:41 PM
 

kjoe said:

A dedicated media center server wouldn't sell well for the same reason that a dedicated Windows Home Server won't sell well.  They should both be usable as one of the PC's in your house.  When MS decides to include both in Vista (Ultimate at least) and ship Softsled in all Vista flavors then you'll have something.  Until then its a waste of money to dedicate a PC to either of these server tasks (that can both be accomplished well with 3rd party software on a regular machine)
November 9, 2007 4:48 PM
 

Jeff Reynolds said:

Pretty much agree with everything people have said here.  

Chris, guess you got me:  Price of a Media Center "Server" would be the killer along with its lack of versatility. My current box (what I'm typing at you right now with) I can serve-up Media Center to my extenders, record 2 SD and 2 HD (clear QAM) shows, store all my household media, use it to do my digital picture/video processing and DVD burning, run Office 2007, and BTW play Titan Quest while many of those are going on.  The only thing I'm missing is OCUR, but that's not a great loss.
November 9, 2007 7:41 PM
 

wilder4u said:

I have been pondering the question of MC server vs. MC and agree with the direction of separate devices.

Wouldn't a server as a separate device from MC be more reliable as a back up - even with a RAID enabled MC - I would be uneasy without another storage location for photo's and videos..  

What about "always on" feature of a server - this way home audio or extenders can access media that is copied onto server.  (but according to some - streaming from server is not so easy ??)

What about a remotely located MC with OCUR turners - can it be controlled seamlessly from the viewing room?

I would think that a MC Server would be located away from the viewing room due to sound, appearance, need to access the system& connections...  so then how reliable is wireless keyboard here (I have no experience with this as my MC experience is co-loacted bos in viewing room).
November 11, 2007 5:36 PM
 

inmodify said:

I would like the Media Center components seperated from the OS.
Windows Home Server, is a file share/backup solution, and should not be treated differently. Vista/XP is a desktop computer software. Media Center Display is an Xbox/Extender GUI--and The EPG/Recording should be a service of a secodary more powerful server.

That's how I'd set it up it--
November 12, 2007 8:43 AM
 

hamiltonguy said:

Yes I would,

I have have built 3 media center's in the past 3 years. The goal is simple, powerful enough to run vista/ or xp mce without a hitch and nearly silent.  I have invested good money after bad and still continue to struggle to find the proper balance.  For me the solution is:

1. Great big, loud mce server in the basement.  With lots of storage and tuners.  The server would be 64 bit, headless, and support at least 4 atsc tuners and 4 analogue tuners/or 4 cablecard tuners.  The device must support dvd vob streaming to extenders.

Along with the media center server, I would purchase 2  additional v2 extenders to go along with my 360.    In addition, I would like the oft-discussed softsled client on futured vista boxes, or windows 7 boxes for the kids rooms, kitchen, etc.

As I live in canada, cablecard does not work for me.  Some other method of connected digital cable/satellite to mce would be much appreciated as well.  
November 13, 2007 8:29 AM
 

HT Slider said:

Personally - No, I would not purchase a dedicated Media Center Server.

In reality we already have on though.  Our primary Media Center PC, custom built with over 2 TB of hard drive storage, a black anodized machined aluminum HTPC case (what you can see anyway), Gigabit LAN, an HD 2600XT video card, a PVR-250 for SD content, an STB with an R5000HD upgrade for HD content, and an over kill Quad Core Q6600 processor serves media to our other 5 Media Center PCs, including one portable laptop.

This Media Center is virtually silent (as long as we aren't watching a DVD or the hard drives thrashing on something - still not noisy though) and it sits comfortably in the home entertainment unit along with all of the other typical A/V equipment beside the HDTV.

I've also spent a fair bit of time helping friends lay out their entire home, home theater systems and another fact that needs to be considered is everyone already has their cable or satellite feeds already going to the family/rec/home theater room - not to a computer room somewhere.  The idea of using an extender in the TV room and splitting/feeding the cable/satellite into the study always comes up as a significant negative - except for extreme enthusiasts.  Due to this, we almost always end up with the first step being a Media Center PC in the TV room (and then the lack of cost effective AV equipment like cased PCs becomes the biggest hurdle).

To me the logical location for a Media Center Server for the largest audience is wherever the first Media Center PC is installed.  This, IMO, is either in the TV/family/rec/home theater room or is in the study where the PC is also used as a PC.  This first Media Center should also be housed in a full size ATX case, specifically designed to keep the sound levels down that also allows for multiple additional hard drives to be added over the years.

On the other hand I can see value added in a WHS for those of us who have grown our number of PCs to the point where a dedicated server for backup and storage (including storage of Recorded TV and other media) makes sense.  Having the ability to add tuners to a WHS would be a nice addition for some of us, but I don't see a large market for this.

The only place I see a stand alone Media Center Server really being utilized is the situation where you have individuals who are looking for an extreme home automation/home media system.  Sure these individuals exist, but for them money isn't likely a show stopper and simply purchasing another complete, and high end Media Center PC to act as this server is not an issue.  The one thing missing to make this a reality is softsled so Live TV and scheduling can be controlled from other Media Center PCs throughout the home (using the standard MC interface).
November 13, 2007 10:41 AM
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